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AfD: Pantacles of Athens has closed::Sillyfolkboy

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AfD: Pantacles of Athens has closed The Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pantacles of Athens discussion has closed as a consensus "merge." The closing admin, SamWalton, identified four of the 40 articles for further talk page discussion whether they should be merged to the list or maintained as stand-alone articles: Talk:Dandes of Argos, Talk:Philinus of Cos (athlete), Talk:Oebotas of Dyme and Talk:Eurybus of Athens. Your input is requested on those article talk pages. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:02, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

FYI, I made this clarifying edit to WP:NOLYMPICS: [1]. Clearly, it was never intended to extend the WP:NOLYMPICS presumption of notability to participants in the ancient Olympic Games because of the relative lack of significant coverage regarding the overwhelming majority of ancient athletes in the available sources. Hopefully, these clarifications will head off any further unproductive AfD discussions that mistakenly rely on NOLYMPICS for the proposition that ancient Olympic athletes are presumed to be notable. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:18, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
@Dirtlawyer1: I agree with that. The modern event has a completely different type of coverage and participation from the ancient one. The official games book for the first modern event probably has more detail than the entire contemporary corpus for the ancient games. I'm all for including information on ancient athletes, but I agree that this notability interpretation leads to unproductive uses of time and energy. SFB 23:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I was actually surprised not to see my own words quoted back to me in the Pantacles AfD. On several occasions, I have fielded questions from rookies who wanted to understand the WP:NOLYMPICS standard, and whether or not it applied to all Olympics participants. Of course, I explained that it did, never thinking for a moment to qualify my explanation that NOLYMPICS only applied to modern Olympic athletes. Oops.
Anyway, among the other AfD/notability subtleties that are barely mentioned in the Pantacles discussion are the depth of coverage in the cited hard-copy references (one sentence or two?), and the fact that several of the ancient sources may be properly characterized as primary, not secondary sources. That seemed to be more than was needed, or could be absorbed, given the tenor of the discussion. In any event, the strong majority of these articles clearly work better as list elements rather than stand-alone articles. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:56, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
@Dirtlawyer1: I think ancient primary sources hold a special status because coverage in that period (and the preservation of that coverage) indicates a high importance of the discussed topic, even if only a few lines. Personally I think Olympics notability criteria is very generous and I agreed with Hyphantes that there are also many modern Olympic athletes whose articles will contain nothing more than their minor part in an Olympic event. I would rather see these redirected and in a list too, but I think I'm in the minority on that point. My opinion is that if you can cover someone's entire biography in a single competition article, then it's not really worth writing a stand-alone article for them. It's not a problem I personally encounter a lot as I tend to work from a starting point of some notability (though even then I sometimes find a subject has far more depth than I imagined). SFB 00:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
From working with Olympic swimmers, I can tell you that in practical application NOLYMPICS is ridiculously over generous in its extension of the presumption of notability to all Olympic participants. It should have been automatic for medalists, with a presumption for finalists, but the idea that all Olympic athletes, including those that never made it out of the qualifying rounds are automatically generating sufficient coverage to satisfy GNG is a very flawed assumption. But then again, several of the other NSPORTS specific guidelines are also overly inclusive, too. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:34, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

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Intro   CFD backlog    Page move requests   DYK for Simon Maina  DYK for Emmanuel Ifeajuna   Turrbal: on adding supposed nations to the \"neighboring nations\" sentence   Sig   Athletics at the 2014 Panamerican Olympic Festival   DYK for Heather Turland  [[User_talk:Sillyfolkboy?section=_Splitting_of_Category:Ice_hockey_people_from_Ontario_| Splitting of Category:Ice hockey people from Ontario ]]   Mismatch    Athlete    Formatting issues   Smallcat exception rule  [[User_talk:Sillyfolkboy?section=_Church_music_is_not_a_church_or_even_a_type_of_church._| Church music is not a church or even a type of church. ]]   Christian leaders    Update navbox name parameter after moving a navbox    American men's basketball players category   [[User_talk:Sillyfolkboy?section=Proposed_deletion_of_Tanya_Jones|Proposed deletion of Tanya Jones]]   2015 Pan Am Templates    Template merging announcements    Template:Medal   Timelines  [[User_talk:Sillyfolkboy?section=_1993_European_Youth_Summer_Olympic_Festival_| 1993 European Youth Summer Olympic Festival ]]  CFD-related RM  DYK for Bob Fitch  Orphaned non-free image File:Great Ethiopian Run Logo.gif  Category:Left-footed association football players  Maccabiah CfDs   FourFourTwo    Michele Brown (athlete)    Please will you edit Frank Lampard's career statistics table. Put in the stats table Lampard's premier league assists also his assists in all competitions for Chelsea.    Good Contributions    Radar   Rio 2016 Olympic stadium name  Disambiguation link notification for February 27  World record   Your deletion of Jewish sports category    Nomination for deletion of Template:Infobox athletics competition   Disambiguation link notification for March 22   IAAF World Cross Country Championships    Re: Category:Disabled sportspeople    Follow-up re new medal icons for medals tables    T&Fcalc    Nomination for deletion of Template:Infobox Country World Championships in Athletics    AfD: Pantacles of Athens has closed    Articles needing attention    Two other female athlete categories tagged as containers   Disambiguation link notification for July 4  Jasmine Todd   Dumb question   DYK for Clayton Vaughn  Disambiguation link notification for July 17  Disambiguation link notification for July 24   AfD for Athletics at the 2015 Southeast Asian Games \u2013 Men's 100 metres    Flag icon misuse, redux    What do you think of these?   Disambiguation link notification for August 9   Request for comment   Disambiguation link notification for September 25   Single extra line breaks do not render in articles   Disambiguation link notification for October 2   Nomination for deletion of Template:EventsAt2015MilitaryWorldGames    MOS:IDENTITY is being revisited: How should Wikipedia refer to transgender individuals before and after their transition?    Olympic swimmers?   Disambiguation link notification for October 18  Japan Championships in athletics   Kim Min-hyeoks    Proposed deletion of List of ALBA Games records in athletics   Disambiguation link notification for October 25  

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